Debate This: Spawn Killing
January 22, 2009 99 Comments
Debate This is an ongoing feature which provides an opportunity for open discussion on various video game-related topics. Those who know how to debate in a mature and respectful manner are encouraged to participate. Present your opinion, but be prepared to defend it.
Spawn killing. Some gamers will passionately defend their long-standing belief that it clearly falls in the realm of unsportsmanlike conduct. Other trigger-happy individuals will happily be anticipating spawn points with the business end of their sniper rifle until the day the first-person shooter genre dies. For a not so brief look at the art of spawn killing, take a gander at the ridiculously long nine minute montage above titled “Spawnology, The Study of Spawns“. If you are anything like me and get your fill of being killed before having the chance to even take a single step while you play, simply watch 5:30-5:50 for a tiny but accurate taste of what it’s all about.
We all have different opinions on what constitutes “fair play”, and what works for one person does not work for the next. As spawn killing is especially frustrating to be on the victim side of things but strangely satisfying to be on the instigator end, let’s duke this one out. Debate This: Are you opposed, in favor of, or indifferent to spawn killing? Do you partake in the practice yourself? And why or why not?
Personally im against. There’s no skill involved. its just a matter of memorising spawn locations. Its different opressing an area of a map when a player spawns in that zone. but to have a scope zoomed in on an exact location where someone’s head will appear, is just unsportsman like.
Its a shame because it can easily turn people off from Halo too. Maybe were lucky that most players dont do it.
Boom. death. Spawn killing isn’t bad; If that is the case, it pretty much means they suck against others. And they deserve to have their torture shortened.
Spawn-killing defeats the whole purpose of playing halo. It is unsportsmanlike, because there is no skill involved. Sometimes spawn-killing is dignified if you’re happily wandering through enemy territory duel wielding maulers and some unlucky blue player randomly appears in front of you. Otherwise it’s no better than betrayals.
In my opinion spawn killing is a cheap tactic. The person(s) in this video is/are obviously skilled with long range weapons, so why the need to pick off targets as they spawn rather than go head-to-head? To me it’s like playing Doom with God-Mode on, whats the point, if there is no challenge then why play?
It is a bit cheap…
I got bored watching the ego-fest after a couple of minutes….
I am against spawning killing for many of the reasons stated above, definitely no skill involved and is completely cheapening a game win. It reminds me of playing Soul Calibur 4 online and some twatend executing the same move over and over and over again, just to achieve a win. It leaves me chewing my controller pad in frustration and hate, a lot of hate.
Opposed. It’s super cheap, but not cheating. The only thing worse is making a 10 minute video of it. I made it about 2 minutes in (even after lowering the volume).
I agree with caelan96, if you are running the map and someone spawns directly in front of you, that’s one thing. Actively searching spawn points is unsportsmanlike behavior.
I can absolutely see the “dedication” to memorize spawn possibilties for people that play competitively, in tournaments, etc.. But that’s not me, that’s not how I play, and that’s not the type of person I want to play against.
I could only make it into 2 minutes of this video as well because half of what they show really does not make it into my classification of spawn killing. I feel the only true spawn killing are those who are waiting with an instant kill weapon at a spawn location and yes, it is a cheap way to win. However, lots of those just happen to spawn at bad locations that were near an active enemy. Why Bungie never did something to try (maybe they have) and spawn you away from enemies I’ll never know.
I’m against spawn camping but not against spawn killing. Honestly what do you do in Rats Nest or Standoff when driving a Warthog and three enemies spawn right in front of you? Do you feel sorry for them or do you mow them down? Do you tell your gunner NOT to shoot at the enemies that just spawned?
Memorizing the spawn points and camping with a sniper rifle is cheap and requires little skill. Bungie could reduce the amount of spawn killing if they made it so that when a player spawns, they would be invulnerable for say two to three seconds, this could give the player a chance to get out of the way.
Let’s be realistic for a moment. If you have a sniper rifle and you see an enemy spawn, do you take a shot at them or do you let them get away?
In general I’m against spawn-killing, as least so far as spawn-camping goes. Watching a spawn point and firing on it the moment another player appears seems to be against the notion of good sportsmanship.
Now, if you happen to kill someone right after they spawn because you were running by the spot at the time, that’s different. Things like that are always going to happen–your intent wasn’t to camp, it just turned out to be a lousy spawn point. If it happens once or twice in a round, so be it, it’s part of the game.
But then, in general, I tend to play to have fun and a good game. In general, I play the way I want to be played against.
Spawn-killing has been a problem with MP shooters since pretty much there inception and I’m always surprised when a game’s design doesn’t seem to take it into account. I tend to be an advocate of “spawn protection” for spawning players to even the playing field a bit (spawning player either has more health that bleeds away quickly to normal levels, or is invincible for the first second or two but cannot shoot). I tend to think the player should also get to see the spot they are spawning at in order to be prepared, but few games implement it this way.
Let’s be realistic for a moment. If you have a sniper rifle and you see an enemy spawn, do you take a shot at them or do you let them get away?
Given my luck with the sniper rifle I could empty every bullet and still not hit them…even if they were standing still! :D
I would rate it just below camping. It’s cheap, but no one’s going to stop doing it anytime soon. It not only takes the fun out of playing, it makes them look like some really awesome player in their medal bins. When they’re really not.
I am most definately for spwan killing. Its part of the game. Its about winning and you take every advantage you can to win. Everyone can spwan kill so y get mad at people who do it? Winner takes all. Losers can cry in the corner.
I would like to add that I do not take halo seriously I know its a game I do have fun with my friends but i do like to win.
Killing someone who just spawned in front of you (or near you, or in your sights, or whatever) – that’s fun, and cool.
http://carnage.bungie.org/haloforum/misc/furhmansdead.mov
(Okay, that wasn’t a spawn, that was a teleporter… but same deal. That kill was talked about for MONTHS – Mig had no idea Furhman was going to be there, he just randomly meleed… and Furhman HAPPENED to come out of the teleporter backwards.)
Nobody’s suggesting you shouldn’t mow down the three red guys that spawn in front of your hog, or avoid taking the shot just because someone spawned in your sights. The question REALLY is, is that 5:30 – 5:50 section Hawty highlighted above really fair play… or just mean?
(I’d contend that it’s just mean; that if the only reason I were playing were to win, that it would be a legitimate strategy, and it’s the reason that it was second nature for MOST players to jump as they spawned in Halo/Halo 2 (why has that tapered off?), but that if I were in the game to have fun (and personally, that’s 100% of the reason I play), this behavior is unacceptable – from EITHER side of the trigger.)
I personally obstain from spawn camping, but I don’t really object to others doing it to me.
If thats what you feel like you have to do to have a good time with the game, and if that is what you feel like you have to do to win, by all means, go ahead.
However, I prefer a real fight, I like my opponent armed to the teeth. I’m even known to pass up an assassination medal now and then, in favor of a shoot-out.
There are rare occations when spawn killing is totally legitimate. For example, when storming the objective/enemy base, providing cover for flag/skull carriers, and lone assassins sent into enemy territory to insight panic. The window for guilt free spawn slaying is very narrow.
May the punk who made this video go on to marry a Lorena Bobbitt wannabe.
Sorry about that. I completely agree with VoltRabbit, though. The issue really lies with the system that can be manipulated too easily.
I just posted two comments to the YouTube page:
“Should I be impressed?”
“You’re like everything that’s wrong with online gaming in one little arrogant package.”
As bad as that section from 5:30 – 5:50 is, the closing segment (8:40 – 9:24) is much worse.
Wow I expected at least some research and not a ‘look-at-me-spawn-killing-everyone’ gameplay video. And as always, the obvious choice of music. :’)
About the whole thing, I think everyone spawnkills and it sucks if it happens to you but you’ll do the same if you see someone spawn.
I have had this happen to me.
I saved it in my file share and labeled it:
“what happens when you play against MLG douches”
The first half of the game, my team was holding its own. But it seemed that the enemy team had a hidden objective besides killing us, they just wanted to rush to the right positions on the map to force my team to spawn in designated spots so that they may spawn rape. It was murder, my team had no opportunity to regroup or mount any kind of offensive. Spawning onto plasma nades and sniper bullets to the head is not my idea of good sportsmanship, nor competitiveness. If MLG endorses this kind of gameplay, which it appears they do, then I for one, do not respect any and all players in that league.
Spawncamping is not fun. Not only does it ruin the game for the other players, it’s just.. boring. Why even play Halo? You’d have the same effect from playing a lightgun game.
Also, the problem is made worse by the fact that your body spawns into the world before you ever see yourself respawn.
If this gets out of hand, Bungie better start giving us 3 seconds of invincibility when we respawn.
I think there is a difference between Spawn Killing and Spawn Camping.
I dislike spawn campers.
Spawn killers – people who happen to be near a spawn when someone pops out? Meh. Sucks. Get over it.
Am I going to cry because of either? Naw…
Will I spawn camp? No… cant be bothered that much to figure it out.
Will I spawn kill? You bet! Cause I bet if someone spawned right behind me and I wasnt looking they would kack me if they could.
I think Bungie should create spawn points with a random amount of displacement. Not so much a spawn ‘point’ as a ‘spawn area’. That way you couldnt pinpoint where someone spawns, only the vague area where they will.
I’ll agree, spawn killing is utterly cheap and unsportsmanlike. If you’re not even giving the other guy a chance, why don’t you go play campaign on easy?
Its also Bungie’s fault for making the maps exploitable (look at CoD4′s maps: they don’t have lines of sight to spawn points, have a plethora of spawn points [really, anywhere is a spawn location], and they’re big enough to spawn people safely, most of the time [though the actual system to determine where you spawn is broken, the maps themselves are fine]), and for making the sniper rifle the god weapon. If you get good with that one weapon, nothing can stop you. If Bungie makes another game with the multiplayer we see in Halo, they need better map and weapon design (taking cues from Gears 1 and CoD4).
Not a fan of Spawn Killing. As previously mentioned it takes nothing more than moderate skill with the Sniper and the memorization of Spawn Points, both of which I cannot, nor care to do. FoxmanFX raised a good point too, Spawn “Areas” sound good to me. Strangely enough though I don’t get SKed too often, granted, I don’t spend the majority of my day gaming (womp womp womp) but when it does happen, it really grinds my gears…OF WAR
Oops, forget to add, yes, the 8:40 – 9:24 section is much worse. “Thanks to all the people who quit and made me laugh”. “Thanks to the Elites who should have quit but didn’t”. I know this is supposed to be civilized but that level of arrogance is obscene. Lets just say several unkind words can be said in response to what this little douche said.
This is a sensitive topic!
Most people don’t realize how much positioning determines your team’s spawn situation. Being spawn killed is preventable in many ways…
-Don’t die so much (seriously)
-Kill more
-Spread the field using tactical positioning
-Reposition yourself if being spawn camped
-Fight back when being spawn camped!!
Obviously this discussion really needs to be split into both spawn killing and spawn camping.
Spawn killing is, in a way, inevitable and nothing much can be done about it. If you are running throughn a corridor and all of a sudden someone spawns right in front of you with their back to you, it’s only natural that you’re going to be assassinating them rather than runnin the opposite direction. Things like that can’t be helped, it’s just a flaw in the system
Spawn camping, however, is a completely different kettle of fish. To actively seek out where you think your recently-killed enemy will spawn and then kill them with 2 seconds of them doing so, is a cheap, underhanded tactic used by people who have no sense of what a good game entails. That’s on top of the fact that they are anal, obsessed and moronic enough to bother to learn where the spawn zones are.
Technically, this argument also applies to MLG players in (e.g.) flag games who automatically rush to where their enemies will spawn to take them down for another 10 seconds. However, all MLG players are idiots, which nullifies that side of the coin.
However, there are some exceptions out there, the most prominent of which I can think of off the top of my head is a 16-player game on Shipment in CoD4. There it’s just going to happen, because of the sweet F-A lack of room on that map for anything over 2v2.
In my opinion, if you’re going to play to win, I feel that you’re free to do whatever it takes, excluding modding, to win. Not having fun because someone is spawn killing you? Stop sucking, and welcome to competition and the design flaw of this spawning system being taken advantage of. ;)
How do you “fight back” if you get shot in the head the instant you respawn? “Don’t die so much?” “Kill more?”
Yes, this is a sensitive topic, but really all you’re saying is “Be better.” Not really great advice. I mean, if you stand in one spot for four seconds after you spawn then you kind of deserve to die, but still… what this guy did on Guardian you can’t really avoid.
I like a good game and giving people an equal chance. Spawn killing does not achieve either.
I’m sorry, but some people here aren’t thinking clearly. How do you “fight back” or “stop sucking” when the enemy is looking at where your head will be when you spawn and then reactively take it off? It is not possible to act when you do not have the chance to.
Even if its a BR only game, you have no chance to win against spawn campers because they’ll get in a Burst before you can fight back. Then you’re in a BR competition with your enemy a full burst ahead of you.
Competition, serpx? Any kind of competition usually involves something called “skill”, of which spawn-killing is not. You can’t really “suck” if your enemy is killing you before you even have your bearing straight when you get back into the game. If you mean “don’t suck” by not dying in the first place, sorry. We’re not all perfect like you, apparently, and have to die at some point in time in the game.
Overall, it’s very cheap and underhanded. A 2 second invincibility would be a welcome change to the game. This would make an even playing field across the board, whether you spawn camp, or occasionally come across someone who just spawns in front of you.
spawn killers = noobs!!!!
I like the designation between spawn killing and spawn camping. Spawn killing usually happens due to a lack of skill on the part of the person(s) getting killed. It usually happens that the team getting killed got pushed way back to their base and then couldn’t do anything to stop the team doing the killing. Spawn camping on the other hand, is usually carried out by one or two individuals who have memorized the spawn points and merely wait for people to spawn there and shoot them while they are defenseless.
Spawn killing is, IMO, ok. It means that a team worked together well enough to put another team in a very bad situation that they could conceivably recover from with enough planning and skill. Spawn camping, however, is not ok. In fact it’s asshole-ish. The distinction, for me, comes from the fact that, 99 times out of a hundred, there is nothing the victim can do to prevent it. They spawn and die within 3 seconds (blink and you missed it).
I’ve been the victim of spawn camping from time to time and have spawn camped myself. It’s a useful tactic in objective based games, and is about as close to suppressive fire as you can get in Halo. It demobilizes the enemy team while you do what you have to do. The only problem is that the campers don’t stop. They just keep going and going and going and going, like little energizer bunnies of death.
As for the 2 second invulnerability, it has the potential to drastically imbalance gameplay. If you’re running out of the enemy base or running into the enemy base and someone spawns in front of you, if they’re invincible, you’re screwed. Basically there’s no real workaround aside from having players not spawn in the map. One user made map that does this well is Coldsnap for Halo Custom Edition on PC. Both teams spawn inside bases that are nigh impossible to get into, considering that they aren’t technically attached to the level at all. Through a series of teleporters the players make their way to the actual level.
>>WARNING ARGUMENT VEERING FROM HALO<<
I found that an interested approach to the spawn camping and spawn killing was presented in Medal of Honor Airborne. In itself not an entirely great game, but it had a pretty interesting multiplayer mode where the Americans would spawn in C-47′s above the map and parachute down to "Spawn" wherever they wanted. The Germans still spawned on the ground. Another game is working on something similar. It’s called Section 8 and it looks pretty good. Similar to MOH:A you spawn above the actual map in a place that the enemy team cannot get to and jump down like Helljumpers or mobile infantry in the Starship Troopers novel.
I support the idea of keeping teams spawning in areas that cannot be accessed by the other team, like TF2, but giving the players full discretion in where they show up on the field, like MOH:A. But as for Spawn Camping and Killing in Halo, well it sucks but that’s the way some people play. There really isn’t anything we can do to change the way they play. After all, these are people who are out to win by any means necessary.
When I was watching this video, it struck me that all the kills we were seeing were not that big of a deal. I figured I do some digging, and if you follow the link to YouTube you’ll find a GT for this player. It’s ‘SLEEKYx16.’ Then I looked up the player’s service record at Bungie.net and HaloCharts.
Was this video the result of methodical research into Halo 3′s spawn system? Or the fact he’s played over 6000 matchmaking games, and over 10000 including customs? I know he wasn’t the only person in the montage, so I imagine his friends are of similar numbers.
I tend to lean towards the later answer above. He’s played a lot and he’s good at it. Is it that he knows spawn points, or that he’s good enough with a sniper rifle to get a kill or two on occasion? Notice if he didn’t have a power weapon the likelyhood of a spawn kill dropped dramatically. I’m not really impressed if you can put carbine shots on a guy who just spawned.
Regarding the montage, I think he’s just played enough games to collect enough footage for something like this. I don’t think it’s as ‘scientific’ as he’d like us to believe. I think his EXP effectiveness is wacked because he quits, so you can get a good idea of win/loss ratio, but even then if you look through games played he doesn’t have a ton of #1 finishes. Not enough to make me think that ‘Spawnology’ ups his game to some elite level.
All this is to say I’m just really NOT IMPRESSED or think this is something that could legitimately affect gameplay is some meta way. Sure, someone could get lucky and influence the spawn system to gain some advantage in a game… but then when is that any different from map and weapon control? Did you just get spawn killed, or are you suffering spawn killing? Did that Warthog happen to splatter you just as you spawned ONCE, or did it happen EVERY time you spawned? There’s a big difference there, and I hardly think anyone could influence the game to create TRUE spawn killing tactics, like what this montage would ‘like’ you to think.
I agree with MixMaster, in that getting in a spawn killing situation is really more about the general skills of either team, both individually and corporately, then rather then some ‘grand scheme.’
In the end, I think the whole idea of ‘Spawnology’ is a red-herring, like trying to manipulate the dice in a game of craps. What would be more convincing is to see this player and his friends go up against a team of equal skill, play a certain number of games, and then see from the footage if they were able to influence the outcome of the games through ‘spawnology.’
My hypothesis is no, you wouldn’t see any evidence at ALL.
Nothing pisses me off like a spawn-killing bastard who has the minimum amount of skill to get a headshot, but not the moral/testicle fortitude to approach their enemy and either get pwnd w dignity or bask in the glory of the post-kill teabag. Spawn-killers are the people that, regardless of their place in line, will pounce on a register right when it opens. The fact of the matter is that SKs
are acne-riddled n00bs who jack off to their precious katana when camping, and,besidesglitchers, will kill Halo 3
And for confirmation, SK is a strategy, but cheaper than hell.
spawn killing is fine, one thing ive noticed is Halo 3 catches the most flak for it. personally i rarely get the chance to do it myself unless I’m pwning CoD4 and everyone in it. when i call in an airstrike and kill people that just spawn i cheer and have a fun time because as much as it sux when it happens to you, its not that big of a deal. In halo 2 if i was being spawn camped and in halo 3 when im being spawn fucked i get angry yeah but i generally play multi team or the big team stuff… so i accept that somehow spawning infront of shotty guy is the best place where i have the least chance of dying. and yes sometimes i scream “thanx bungie!!!” but i soon rationalize that it will happen again only i have the shotty. CoD4 feature 9vs9 on an incredibly small map known as Shipment… with that small space spawn killing happens and yet no one complains, because moments later when they get 5 kills in a row they can call in that airstrike and get 7 people 5 of which just spawned. so basically i support spawn killing… if your good then go ahead. when its skill (face it, thats alot of memorizing to do) then hand out credit where credit is due. as i said i’d do it if i could… but i generally noscope my teamates before i snipe a stationary target 3 feet ahead of me.
I personally are completely against Spawnkilling. It is the way for unskilled n00bs to achieve kills, because they have enough skill to shoot someone, just not to actually kill them. Spawnkillers are essentially saying, “Wow, I’m the best player ever! I just killed you. I can teabag you… Or I can just kill you right when you respawn.” Seriously. Spawnkilling is for me more annoying then teabagging.
Spawnkillers, you are playing a videogame. This isn’t real life. If it was, there’d be no spawning. Kills don’t matter. Its the fun you have by playing the game. (I know I sound like a dork, but its true. What else do you do with a game, buy it, play it to scratch the disk, and sell the disk on ebay?) Seriously. Mostly now, there is a thinline between an officer in videogames and a recruit: They both suck, but one has less of a life then the other. I’m not saying that all Generals are noobs, but many are. Experience isn’t that important…
Okay, I know I’m getting flamed for that.
Seriously though, I think some things in other games are better.
In TF2, you spawn in a team-only area. In the battlefield games, you choose your spawnpoint. In Super smash brothers (Yes, i know, not an FPS), you have a 1 second spawn invulnerability. In halo, you get your ass kicked by some noob who camps on the rocketlauncher spawn blowing up the team whenever they spawn.
In videogames, there is a big difference between skill, and luck. However, Spawnkilling is neither. You post a video of getting a killionaire by spawnkills, you don’t get certain responses. Nobody posts “OMG U HAZ LEET SKILLZ!!! PL0X GIMME SUM!”, or “Wow u r so lucky!”. Instead, people post wow, you jackass, you’re a spawnkilling douchebag, aren’t you? (“I’m personally going to hunt you down and kill you in halo, I will stalk your gamertag!” Okay, not likely, but I wish it would happen.)
I find the one thing more annoying than spawnkilling is that people stay at a spawnpoint, kill you, spam the chat line with how great they are, teabag you, kill you again, call themselves god, Kill you again, say you suck…
Spawnkilling is a strategy, true… Yet it has no strategic value. In a videogame, you’re supposed to win by sneaking up and assassinating your enemy, or finding a shortcut. Not sitting there racking up headshots when people spawn. It is a cheap waste of time…
Personally, I avoid every spawnkiller I see.
if you find it fun to spawn-kill, then why bother playing against an opponent? set up a second controller and have your fun. it’s not that there is no skill involved in spawn-killing (you still need to be able to point and click), it just shows that you are not willing to take the person/team on in a real tactical situation. Echoing what Mr Wu said, there is a time and place where it is unavoidable. an example being when you and a buddy are on a ‘hog strike. are you going to slow your turret down to give them a chance to shoot at you if they spawn in the open? not likely. but soon afterwords they will be spawning in their base (or behind you) with every which weapon pointed at your tail pipe, hoping to blow you up.
in the end, it just removes the fun value for both teams. and when there is no fun, there is really no point in playing a game for entertainment.
@Mortifer Fain:
The first half of the game, my team was holding its own. But it seemed that the enemy team had a hidden objective besides killing us, they just wanted to rush to the right positions on the map to force my team to spawn in designated spots so that they may spawn rape. It was murder, my team had no opportunity to regroup or mount any kind of offensive.
Nowhere does it say in there how they manipulated the situation to take advantage and route your forces… It was murder; what do you guys think the objective is out there? I don’t see much mention of fair play in Sun Tzu’s The Art of War. Take the offensive higher ground, hold your enemy on precipitous ground: annihilate him. If one of your guys could have avoided the SK, converse effectively with his teammates and rush a known second SK Camp spot, maybe things would have been different.
You shouldn’t be bitter because of their tactics and supposedly ‘hidden agenda’ for your team. Some squads have a knack for effective combat and communication… don’t look at me, I may talk a good fight but I’ve stickied myself! ;)
I think spawn killing is its own reward and punishment. If you have to sit in a cold spot and wait for all those kills, I don’t just pity the poor bastard being spat from Limbo -I pity you; you’re too hellbent on your kill quota and missing out on a lot of fun shit. Enjoy basking in the glory of loneliness and self-perpetuated douchery… meanwhile:
“Teabag orgy over here!” :)
I give ‘em the 4-Second rule.
Yea spawn camping sucks but SK is sometimes forgivable depending on the situation
BTW, I’m going back to DethPwn from now on
I’m definitely against spawn-killing. Only, though when it is done like shown in the video. Studying spawn-points, knowing exactly when and where someone will respawn, etc. If someone happens to spawn near you when you’re playing, sure, take the kill. We’ve all done it. So there are certain degrees of spawn-killing. Getting lucky and having someone spawn near you is fine. Memorizing spawns for kills is not. One more thing, if it’s a custom game with your friends you’re playing for fun, whatever, as long as no one cares. And, on some games, it is almost nescessary to spawn-kill. Example, for my game type, cage match, you spawn in a fence-box with gravity hammers and rockets. If you can stay alive long enough to see the other players spawn, you’ll need to kill ‘em quick or they’ll kill you in under a second. You can download the map and game type on my fileshare, http://www.bungie.net/stats/Halo3/FileShare.aspx?gamertag=II%207NatioN%20II I’ll need to update the map though, because if you spawn outside the cage, there is only one side where you can enter via teleporter. On the other side, you’ll need to commit suicide. First, I need to update my bungie pro…If you like the game, message me and I’ll send you the link when it’s done. GT: II 7NatioN II (those are i’s)
If your team is good enough to get to the point were you are able to constantly spawn kill, then you should do it…The reason for the assault rife is being able to spawn with a chance, if you can’t live long enough its cuz you suck
Spawn killing is crap, you’d have to have some serious cahones to openly admit that you spawn kill. In my opinion it takes the fun out of playing on both ends. I hate being spawn killed and I hate it when I spawn kill. For the receiver it’s frustrating and usually you’re not paying attention when you first spawn so it’s annoying to have to wait to spawn again. When I end up spwan killing someone, I feel like I cheated myself out of the fun because like I said, they’re not really paying attention so there’s no satisfaction in it. Maybe I just don’t get it, but it just doesn’t seem to take any skill, unless you consider memorizing spawns a skill, then I guess it takes a minimum amount of skill. Either way, I don’t like spawn killing.
Clearly you didn’t watch the clip from the video I referenced as being the base for this discussion. I don’t see how anybody could get themselves out of that situation with their AR. If you can, please share your secret with the rest of us.
@ seVen & et al.
You said ‘Studying spawn-points, knowing exactly when and where someone will respawn, etc.’
I really doubt this is possible, at least in a way that would so clearly effect gameplay on a consistent basis. Think about it: how many spawn points are on each map? Does anyone really KNOW the programming that dictates where you spawn?
For anyone, the answers are probably ‘dunno’ and ‘no.’ ‘Spawnkilling’ becomes indistinguishable from map and weapon control. A great example of this are several games I’ve had on Standoff. Your team grabs both rockets and laser, while the Warthog rolls around killing everyone. If it’s a BR start, your team can EASILY dominate the opposition, resulting in an IOU from Luke for a steak dinner.
Is that spawnkilling? No, it’s great team work and strategy. I think people get excited about the topic because while it’s great to give, it sucks to receive.
The interesting thing though, is that with hard work and patience the above situation CAN be over come. You will not ALWAYS spawn in a bad position. The tables are QUICKLY turned with a couple spawns in the base, mixed with a power drain and a couple plasma grenades. Warthog is down, take out the laser guy, and you’re rolling in no time. Maybe even turn the same thing back on THEM.
(This would probably be a great time to discuss quitters and their effect on LIMITING close, pitched games, but I’d be getting off topic. ;) )
I’m probably beating a dead horse at this point, but it seems to me spawnkilling is a myth. Does a spawn kill happen? Yes, but does it ever rise to the level of ‘Spawnology?’ Meh. A single eight minute montage hardly proves it. Our personal instances of getting pwned by better players don’t either.
(Does anyone have an idea of how to scientifically prove this? I do, but I’d like to know first if anyone would like to hear my thoughts.)
The way I see it.
Can you really blame the guy for killing you, the aim in the game is to kill the enemy players. What is he supposed to do? Let you live, regroup and possibly kill him.
No, it’s the game developer’s fault (Sorry Bungie :( ) for allowing this to be possible in the game.
I find spawn killing legitimate. Usually it takes about as much skill to maintain a repeated spawn killing as it would to get out of it. Halo is a true game. One of my favorite aspects of halo is that it isn’t a war simulation, its just a damn fun game. If you want perfectly reasonable and fair games, (relatively) then go play Gears of War or Call of Duty. I’m not saying that it isn’t annoying when caught by someone who is actually skilled at spawn camping, but it is an aspect of the game that just makes it all the more enjoyable. The variety of the types of games that I play keeps me hooked.
A question for bs angel, hoping that you don’t get offended,
Why do you blog practically constantly on a game that you aren’t particularly skilled at? I could see a certain affinity for the community, but you must put a great deal of time and effort into keeping involved, including reading your posts comments. I was just wondering why.
And I don’t know definitively if you are, in fact, bad. You have mentioned it a couple times, so correct me if you were being modest or sarcastic.
‘A question for bs angel, hoping that you don’t get offended,
Why do you blog practically constantly on a game that you aren’t particularly skilled at?’
You haven’t played against her, have you? :)
No offense taken. I blog regularly about Halo because it is my go to game. I play plenty of other games, but it is always the one that stays in my regular rotation. While I constantly poke fun at myself for my betrayals in particular, if you look at my stats my betrayal ratio is not any higher than the average person. In fact, many of my friends have a betrayal ratio that is higher than my own. I’m just not embarrassed to admit when it happens and I don’t take my gaming so seriously that I can’t laugh at myself. As far as general skill level goes I’m not a 1337 MLG pro, but I’m perfectly capable of holding my own in the majority of circumstances. But what it comes down to is I game because it’s fun. I play Halo because it’s fun. And I blog because it’s fun. :)
“Does anyone really KNOW the programming that dictates where you spawn?”
You don’t need to know the programming to see the results and gain an intuitive understanding of the pattern. Watch the segment Angel referenced. He SK’ed the guy at Red Team start, then at Overshield, then at Blue Team start. Because he knew that deaths negatively impact the likelihood of spawning in an area, and areas further from enemies positively impact the likelihood of spawning in an area, he could predict the order in which the enemy spawned.
If Bungie would just make maps that have inherently safer spawns and nerf some particular weapons (having a large variety so you can find the weapon that suits you like CoD would also be appreciated), the game/multiplayer engine would be immensely better off.
I’ve been hearing a lot of ‘Do as I say, not as I do’ logic.
Spawn killers can go to hell when they die >.>
I completely despise the practice of spawn killing. If you just happen to catch them as they spawn, that’s one thing. But if you take the time to study and memorize the spawn points and how they work, you take this game WAY to seriously.
‘You don’t need to know the programming to see the results and gain an intuitive understanding of the pattern. Watch the segment Angel referenced. He SK’ed the guy at Red Team start, then at Overshield, then at Blue Team start. Because he knew that deaths negatively impact the likelihood of spawning in an area, and areas further from enemies positively impact the likelihood of spawning in an area, he could predict the order in which the enemy spawned.’
That’s true, but I think that becomes ‘intuitive’ to anyone who’s played the game a ton and gotten good at it. By saying that, it proves my point. This is a factor of being good at the game, not explictly trying some underhanded strategy.
Also, what was the skill level of the player he did this too? Could it also be kept up the entire game? Sure, he did this a couple times to the same guy and stuck it in a montage – but did he end up even winning that game? This is the kind of information we would need to see if ‘Spawnology’ is legitimate.
If it’s against me, that’s one thing. Take anyone on the Top Ten of HaloCharts, and it’s another matter entirely.
—–
On a side note, I think this conversation is lacking in solid evidence one way or the other. One eight minute montage and the personal experiences and memories of the participants is not compelling proof for or against the existence or potential efficacy of ‘spawnkilling.’
What I would like to see are a series of games, matching a team using ‘spawnkilling’ vs. a team that isn’t. Maybe get this kid and a friend, then match them up versus a team of similar skill. I can think of a few people off the top of my head to make a FORMIDABLE team.
Take these teams, play 20 games of team doubles slayer, then add two to each team and play another 20 games of team slayer. Then analyze the game statistics, as well as the footage. Who won? Why did they win? This wouldn’t be hard to determine.
Use the same map and layout for each game, so as to control for as many factors as possible. The reason I would use doubles then team slayer is to control for the difference between these gametypes. Most of the spawnkilling seemed to be in doubles. Is it different with larger teams?
Then, you would have to have this informational analysis inspected and verified by an independent, intelligent member of the Halo community with some rapour. narcogen, the guys at Ascendant Justice, bs angel, Wu, HalCharts, Halo3Mythbusters, or god-willing a Bungie guy (Shishka or lukems maybe?) come to mind. These folks would then vouch for the legitimacy of the results.
On the flip side, this is JUST a game. So who cares? :P
My point in all of this is: debate about the issue is fine and dandy, but in a sense it’s ‘just for fun’ until we get some hard and fast evidence to work with.
Yeah, it is just a game, but games are supposed to be fun, and I don’t like dying 4 times in a span of 30 seconds, respawn time included. That’s not fun to me. Fun for me is the actual act and thrill of fighting someone for survival relativley face-to-face, and win or lose it was still a fun experience (unless it’s some BS kill like them assassinating my face or soemthing, then I say WHAT THE FUCK and throw the controller).
I’m opposed. It’s unsportsman-like in my opinion, and I generally go out of my way to not kill someone right away if they happen to spawn in my view. Although there’s been the occasional “I was throwing a sticky and you happened to spawn in front of it,” but I’ve never done it on purpose.
I guess I just like to think of Halo as a battle with an actual confrontation, not duck-hunt. Or maybe I’m just trying to make an excuse for being so terrible at Halo. Or maybe spawn-campers just try to get the biggest kill count to compensate for a small dick. I’unno. Just saying.
Completely and totally fair. It’s not network manipulation or use of modded content. Stop crying about it.
Bleh, just thought I should clarify- Sometimes it’s just bad luck that you spawn and die repeatedly for a stretch, and yeah you might get pissed, but that disipates pretty quickly on average, I’d think. It’s the campers that piss me off. When you see “You were sniped by So-and-so” and “So-and-so sniped you” repeatedly until someone fiinally manages to off him, that’s when I get seriously pissed. That kind of feeling lasts for the next few games. Yeah, it’s probably a useful skill for MLG, but most people who play Halo probably are not aiming to be MLG-level pro. They just want to have fun. Campers ruin the fun by being assholes to prove that they’re so much better at life because they beat you in a game. And the people that go and make fresh new accounts and utterly destroy everyone below them disgusts me. Yeah, it probably takes a lot of skill to memorize spawn points and have truly good aim with a sniper, but it still seems like a really dickish move to me. I kind of wish they made some sort of dedicated MLG multiplayer list besides that other MLG list, that would force people in if they met certain criteria or something. Meh, getting off topic. My bad. Done ranting.
Spiff, I think you missed the entire point of this debate. It’s not about whether it’s fair or cheating. It’s about whether or not you think it’s good sportsmanship and if you choose to engage in this practice.
While it is unarguable that spawn killing does take some skill, I still think that it’s a very cheap tactic since your opponent is unable to provide any kind of resistance. Now, if an enemy just happens to spawn next to you you are free to kill them, but spawn killing someone because you’ve memorized the spawns and are actively trying to spawn kill is unacceptable, especially when you are able to kill the same person 2 or more times because you knew where they would spawn. This really is a double standard because everyone whats to spawn camp, but no one ever wants it done to them, so everyone should just be civil and not do it, especially with one hit kill weapons.
Now, if you want to spawn camp with something like a battle rifle or really any other multi-hit weapon that’s not nearly as bad, but as far as one hit kills from spawn camping, everyone should try to avoid committing them unless it’s a kill of opportunity rather than one that you have saute out.
Also, I think that this is a form of cheating and I do not participate in this practice.
it depends what end of the BR or Sniper I’m on before i can say whether I’m for or against.
I now see that you were being modest to the point a bold faced lie.(ignoring the fact that I can’t actually see your face) I apologize for my ignorance. Your stats are a deal better than mine. – ZebadiahZ
Killing a person who just happens to spawn by you, or in your line of sight, is perfectly acceptable in my opinion. If I spawn directly in front of an enemy warthog, as I often do, I find myself more upset by the spawn system than the enemy players. However, memorising, and actively seeking out spawn points is an incredibly annoying practice that borders on hopeless obsession. If a player can actually reliably predict whereother players will spawn and kill them instantly, well, good for them, but they really need to check out this “outdoors” thing that every one keeps telling me about. While i’m not sure if such a strategy could actually win you a game, it makes a horrible experience for everyone, including your team mates.
bs is right, Spiff. We’re not a bunch of nubtards sitting around questioning whether ‘It’s a legitimate strategy’. And nobody’s ‘crying’ about it, just debating whether you have ub3r h34d5h07 5k!115 because you can aim and shoot which requires the dexterity learned 30 years ago w/ Duck Hunt, or if you’re just a pompous douche who rocks his jollies by pumping lead into innocent, unsuspecting, players.
Too many comments for me to read, so I’ll just state the obvious followed by my opinion.
The obvious:
Obviously it’s cheap if the team doesn’t even have a chance to realize where they’ve been shot from. That’s why it’s spawn killing. Duh. Sure, sometime’s it’s just a coincidence/luck, as in you’re wandering and someone spawns right in front of you and you zoom in and murder them immediately, but that’s the way the game goes.
My opinion:
It’s part of the game. This “issue” came up a while ago and Bungie explained the way the game “chooses” an area for a team to spawn, and that occasionally an entire team will spawn in the same place, and occasionally they will spawn there twice in a row (maybe more). Oops. It happens.
To anyone who would call this totally unfair and omg and cheap and omg, well I’m sure they’re just complaining because it’s happening to them. I even say “That’s lame. I just spawned!” when it happens to me. BUT, I sure as hell am not complaining when I’m the one doing the shooting. “Hm, they just spawned, and I have a full sniper rifle. This is clearly unfair. I should wait for their whole team, which just spawned and can see me, to murder me. That’s only fair.” Give me a break.
It’s part of the game. It’s cheap. But it’s efficient. And if you have the skill to pull off the 4+ headshots, reload, and repeat, good for you and more power to you. Some people could never take advantage of an opportunity like that, so player skill is also involved. Also, some people spawn and immediately start moving, ducking, and dodging. If the person firing doesn’t have enough skill to capitalize on the lucky opportunity (or on what they “predicted” would occur), the tables can turn instantly.
Which leads to the final dynamic of game play. A spawn kill slaughter or two of an entire team might not mean anything. If the opposing team is coordinated, communicates, and is at least able enough to hold their own, they can still win the game. So many variables.
So yeah, I can’t believe there’s even a debate about this, but whatever. I won’t stop and let myself get overwhelmed just because it’s cheap or unfair. Will I complain when it happens to me? Sure, because it sucks, and I’m not afraid to admit that (and by complain, I mean a “That’s lame/garbage/whatever!”). Keep playing, get payback. Win the Super Bowl.
but pumping lead into unsuspecting players makes me giggle… and few things make a grown man giggle.
SoMP brought up a great point… more evidence. aside from that spawn killing is ridiculous fun. because as much as any of us want to play fair no one can resist doing it, then following the action up with an: ” I AM SO 1337!!!!” (actually taking the time to say 1, 3, 3, 7) plus people have been spawn capming for years… from UT 98 to Gears 2. rainbow six vegas fixed the problem (kinda) by givin you 3 secs of invulrability… but then it also spawns u in front of the guy with the spas 12 half the time. so though this guys claims he can spawnkill like a pro. if he can then more power too him. do you guys who flame him learning the spawns also flame Predator for his forge art and the time he spent doing that. or Bs for devoting time she could use for halo 3 but rather to upkeep this site and i <3 halo 3 screenshots. all this man has done is take a passion and go with it. yeah it sucks to be on the receiving end but hey if halo 3 was fair or if people played fair all the time… then it wouldnt be much of a game would it.
@ Avateur
I agree with your points, and kind of agree the issue is more or less moot. I think what Wu said earlier is very instructive in regards to what you said, and perhaps as a way to wrap up the discussion.
Fuhrman was on the receiving end of a lucky melee from Mig. Sure, he probably didn’t LIKE being on that end of the kill, but in the end it was a hilariously awesome moment. That’s kind of the point of the game, to have fun and make great memories (like our multi-team craziness, so cool!).
But on the other hand, it can teach us a lot more about winning and losing then maybe we would personally care to admit. I know I can get REALLY frustrated by not playing well, and whenever I do, I man up and apologize to the people I played with that time. It sucks to do that, but I’d like to think I’m learning a thing or two about humility, however slowly that might be.
I’m competitive, and find winning fun, but that doesn’t give me the right to act like an ass when I lose/get pwned. In the end, it is just a game, and the best part is meeting and playing with all the great people inside the Halo community. Learn to laugh about the unlucky stuff… that’s what I take from this. Maybe I’ll get really lucky, and be a better person IRL. :D
I agree, and thanks for mentioning that Wu posted. I just read his post and have to agree. After posting I saw angel’s post about how this was about sportsmanship (though to me, if something is “unsportsmanlike” then it’s still people crying about something and calling it unfair), I thought about another form of spawn killing that applies the same to my sniping argument, which Wu also mentioned:
“Nobody’s suggesting you shouldn’t mow down the three red guys that spawn in front of your hog.”
He went on to try and shift the emphasis to that particular part of the video and whether it was just mean or not, but I think that doesn’t really matter considering how in social games where both teams might be playing 100% for fun that people may begin to get frustrated when say, you (MacPhisto) and I do one of our “Hog Perfections,” which absolutely involves destroying a team over and over again as we spawn.
Hell, that B.net video the other day with the Invincible Double Killionaire made so many people go OMG WOW even though it was nothing but spawn killing. That other team definitely wasn’t having fun dealing with that, but do you think they would have cared if they were the ones doing it?
So really whether it’s being done like at that 5 minute area of the video or it’s being done in general, it’s still happening and can turn a 100% for fun game for both teams into a really “bad” experience for the team getting slaughtered. In other words, while extremely cheap, you just have to suck it up and move on whether you’re playing for fun or not (so the whole “unacceptable if I’m playing for fun” totally destroys vehicular gameplay, which definitely involves spawncamping if you’re not just driving around crashing into things). Which is why, again, I don’t see how there’s even a debate here.
As for the acting like an ass when losing or getting pwned, I never really touched on that. Losing happens, sometimes horribly bad. GG guys, GG. That’s all you can do. Maybe call the entire game full of BS and bitch a little, but hey, you’re frustrated and mad but whatever. I’ve bitched plenty at losses, but I usually blame “host” or some other inanimate object or thing for my loss, not “oh my gawd they were such rocket whores or spawn campers or oh my gawd I’m selling the game because it sucks.” I’d say the best thing it can teach us about winning and losing is to just play the game, bitch, and get over it.
Sportsmanlike, unsportsmanlike, it’s all so damned subjective. Hundreds of thousands of gamers of “newb” skill level to “0mg 5up3|2 1337″ skill level has spawn killed at one point or another, intentionally and unintentionally. That’s all there is to it. This “for fun” or “for win” thing still sees it and will continue to. And like I said, I’m not going to just drive off a cliff with my gunner because their entire team just popped up in front of me and it’s not nice to pwn them (even if I expected/knew they’d be spawning right there).
I’m for, and here’s why (long-ish):
If you play any FPS multi-player, I’m going to assume you are there to win, not just so you can help the other team build a fortress of dead bodies. To win, you must defeat your opponents; meaning you have to kill them. It’s just as true in objective games as it is in Slayer. Now, if someone has a video of a pacifist CoF win, I’ll withdraw that point, but until then it stands. To win, you have to kill, and to kill you must use everything you have at your disposal: power weapons, vehicles, teamwork, and terrain. They can all be useful tools to gain victory or they can be the chopping block you lay your head on for the other team.
Example: Slayer, free for all on High Ground. The game begins and you immediatley start moving. Why? Because you hope to gain some sort of advantage over your 7 opponents. This advantage could be any combination of the aforementioned items/locations, or all of them. It doesn’t matter. For the examples sake, we’ll say that you happen upon the rocket launcher and obtain active camo as well. You pick these items up and carry on until you spot an enemy. This enemy is a medium distance from you, unaware of your presence due to the camo and almost straight at you. A perfect shot. You line up and pull the trigger. One point for you, congrats. You carry on slaughtering your enemies without a second thought. Until you come down to the beach and watch a person appear out of thin air. Once again, the person is unaware, perhaps a little disoriented, and you are in position to take advantage of the situation. What to do?
At this point, I give you two possible arguments:
Arguement 1: Spawn Killing is Fair.
Premise 1: You believe in fair play. (hence why you examine the argument)
Premise 2: If you believe in fair play, then letting an opponent win when you could have defeated them is wrong.
Premise 3: If Spawn killing is fair and you believe in fair play, then not killing someone when you had the chance, spawn killing or not, is wrong. (At least in slayer games; in objective game types there might be a higher priority at stake).
Conclusion: If you believe in fair play, then you have a duty to take a kill any way you can get it, within the rules.
Argument 2: Spawn Killing is unfair.
Premise 1:You believe in fair play.
Premise 2:If you believe in fair play, then letting an opponent win is wrong. (You have a duty to compete in good faith).
Premise 3: Fairness aside, Spawn Killing is a strategy with it’s own benefits and drawbacks.
Premise 4: Spawn killing is an item in your arsenal.
Premise 5: Contradiction: If spawn killing is an item in your arsenal, then not using it contradicts Premise 2.
Conclusion: Tactical superiority is never fair. From great military minds, to chess grand masters, to Halo players, the one who will win is the one who uses every advantage available to them.
‘I’d say the best thing it can teach us about winning and losing is to just play the game, bitch, and get over it.’
Yeah, sometimes you get dealt a bad hand and it sucks. LIfe will move on. :D
It seems the debate just boils down to this: spawnkilling is part of the game, and to a large extent will not effect the match to match experiences we all share. I doubt any of us have experienced it so badly, so regularly, to consider giving up the game.
Is spawnkilling a ‘tactic?’ I’m not convinced it even COULD be considering the make-up of this game. This montage’s ‘Spawnology’ is a bunch of hot air. Again, you can get some spawn kills, but center the victory around this? Well, at that point is it any different from map and weapon control? Or just playing being GOOD at it?
(On a side note, I was recently split from a party I was playing with. It was CTF on Standoff, and if you want being ‘mean,’ these kids were it. Most of the team was multiple star generals, and obviously played together a lot. My buddies on the otherside were completely overmatched.
What made them mean was hanging onto the flag at the end just to rack up the kills. Yeah, THAT’S when your using the game to being a jerk. More so then anyone could use ‘spawnkilling’ to the same end.)
At Jagged, missed your post while I was working on my last one.
‘Conclusion: Tactical superiority is never fair. From great military minds, to chess grand masters, to Halo players, the one who will win is the one who uses every advantage available to them.’
Do we think Bungie didn’t anticipate the possibility of spawn-camping? I don’t think so. On a certain level, this is part of the genre.
Well it’s nice to know you agree with my stance. One final reply though:
“What made them mean was hanging onto the flag at the end just to rack up the kills. Yeah, THAT’S when your using the game to being a jerk”
Again, that’s subjective. If I have 27 kills and 0 deaths and am going for that awesome Invincible, I’m definitely going to ask my team to hold onto the flag for a while longer. Hell, I might even do that at 17 kills. If that makes me a jerk, oh well. That just gives your team the opportunity to get that flag back or pull off an upset (sort of like in that VIP game where angel was about to die but I pulled off the miracle kill with literally one second to spare). I reject the other team’s reality and make my own, or I lose. GG. :)
Wow… LOTS of responses… Seeing this video if it took months to get the footage, reminds me why I quit playing most FPS’s online. Not specfically spawn-camping, just knowing the game inside out out so well. I don’t have the patience to get that good to be able to have fun against people that play a single game that much. Just like Tekken and the old fighting games when arcade were still big. People are so damn good its not fun anymore unless you are also that good.
Good on them for becoming that skilled at Halo (or whatever game), I just don’t have the patience…
You know a game like Team Fortress 2 fixes this problem by having a spawn area where the other team can’t see or go, they can always camp the exit to that area but you’re the one running out there blindly getting killed, you’re not just plonked right on top of the Demoman’s explosives by the game gods.
My thoughts on the practice in halo3 are this: it takes knowledge and skill, you want to invest the time and practice into knowing player respawns and preparing yourself to kill them at that location? go ahead, they clearly died in the first place, giving you the advantage that they had to wait to respawn.
They could be aided by offering a 1 second period after respawning where the player is invulnerable and does no damage, i tend to put that into custom gametypes as a little bonus to respawning players, it usually takes just over one second for people to orientate themselves so there’s no “haha you can’t hit me” nonsense either.
At Tied the Leader, we have long contemplated the notions of sportsmanship. Wheather they deserve it or not [and usually, they do not] we afford our opponents [notice I do not use the word enemy] the chance of a good game. The following is our official policy on spawn-camping:
Spawn Camping Policy: When on Defense in an Objective Match, a TTL Gunslinger does not sustain a prolonged attack from inside or immediately at the enemy base. If there is no immenent threat to our base or flag, fall back to a defensive posture around our base or its midfield perimeter.
Spawn Camping Rule of Thumb: Don’t be a jerk!
If we are dominating an opponent, we see no reason to kill them where they stand. I would rather those gamers learn a thing or two about how to advance forward on the map. I would rather those gamers not immigrate away from the Halo Nation to [heaven forbid] WiiLand out of a sense of desperate frustration.
Before this community rallied around her, Angel was one of those Gunslingers. She used to tow that line right beside us. I am sure she still does. That is why she is always welcomed in our posse. Be not fooled by the sense of humor and humility of your resident Hawty. She is a stone-cold killer when she wants to be – a fierce competitor when the mood strikes. Yet, she always approaches her adversary with a note of respect. That is, until they give her a reason not to…
We are all gamers. We have that common. If you encountered someone who was a Halo fan at a party, you would be glad to meet them. You would shake their hand and swap war stories. Why are we not able to be excellent to each other online? What is it about the Internet that brings out the very worst in some people? In real life, do we find ourselves kicking people when they are down?
You can holster your “This is just a game” arguments. Xbox Live provides us with a chance to interact with people. The fact that we are removed by distance and identity should have no bearing on how we behave. Were you to curse your own mother, she would not accept your excuse that it didn’t count because it was over the phone. How you behave when you are anonymous says more about you than how you bahave when someone can smack your trash-talking mouth.
When did being cool to one’s fellow gamer go so out of style?
Thanks for prolonging this debate, angel. It needs to happen. We need that reminder.
“This is a factor of being good at the game, not explictly trying some underhanded strategy.”
Good Blackjack players know how to card count, but casinos will throw you out for it. Just because you can do something doesn’t mean its an intended part of the game.
Also, I used the word intuitive to differentiate between explicitly knowing the complex algorithm that determines where you spawn and knowing a simple/rough pattern that works 90% of the time.
Knowing spawns and investing the time to understand that kind of a system is a skill in and of itself; I don’t take the time to do it, but if i have a shot at the enemy, and there is no other priority, I am going to take it. To give the enemy anything less than your very best effort demeans the spirit of competition.
Spawn camping is unsporting and I feel most game designers still haven’t done enough to curb this behaviour with dynamic spawn point generation and other counter measures. Even as a generally weak player in online FPS, I find spawn camping to be pretty boring.
I agree with almost everything you said, XerxdeeJ. Maybe not so much about hanging out in their base, but yeah. :P
But about your “I would rather those gamers learn a thing or two about how to advance forward on the map” position, how does that teach these gamers anything? I think it’s how one reacts and what strategies get created when you have to tread lightly due to that sniper picking everyone off instantly that makes you better. If a team is being dominated as it is, letting them run around a bit and get better weapons just to die 1 minute from now really doesn’t change things. I suppose it isn’t as overwhelming as dropping dead the moment you appear, but it’s just as frustrating.
I’d say live and let live, and by that I mean play the game and just kill and be killed. I don’t want anyone to handicap themselves because they’re beating me badly, even if badly means I lose 50-15.
Xerxdeej stated things in an eloquent manner I am not capable of. Read his thoughts and know they mirror my own.
XerxdeeJ: Best Comment
Yeah, Xerxdeej did a good job of showing how this issue really is more then just a tactic in a video game.
There are a couple perspectives I see this issue through. I love playing Grifball (on one of the top teams over at Roosterteeth’s Grifball Leagues), MLG (I can hold my own with very good players), and of course, regular Halo (Team Slayer, Team Doubles, Social Slayer, etc).
When playing MLG, spawn killing is an extremely important aspect of the game. The MLG Flag variants on Onslaught, The Pit, or Narrows are prime examples of this point. When someone pulls the flag, their team-mates are strategically spread out across the map to try to make people spawn in a certain place, as far away from their flag carrier as possible. Unless you are unbelievably sneaky or lucky, you cannot capture the flag just by grabbing it when some of the other team are alive. The only time you want to pull the flag is when there are many people on the other team dead. That way there is less resistance when you actually grab the flag, and then all or most of their team will spawn in one place together hopefully where you expect them, too and you can clean them up again so they don’t have a chance to stop your flag carrier. After the game people do not complain about the fact that they were spawn killed, they know they were fairly beaten because the other team controlled the map better than they did. In my eyes, having control of the map is like a wrestling match (the sport wrestling not that fake stuff you see on tv). The teams start out equal, for a while they size each other up, and then one makes a push against the other. That push may work, but they other team may be able to use your push to their advantage, hence the term counter-cap (when one team captures the flag or comes very close to capturing it, but because they used up all their control of the map taking the flag, and a lot them died getting it over to their side, the other team has a chance to recover control and take a flag of their own). At some points a team may be pinned down, but if they are good, they will know how to get out of it and reverse their position. In flag games, when the other team captures the flag is the time to try to get out of a bad spot. In ball games, playing the ball allows a team who was pinned down to recover and keep the ball away from the other teams controlled area. Right now there are so many people who are individually good enough, the reason why the top teams get their edge is because of teamwork and knowing how to control spawns. Whether that being knowing where the other team is spawning in order to kill them or spawning a team-mate in a strategic spot, it is an essential skill to have in MLG. This tactic is not frowned upon and the losing team (usually) doesn’t complain about the other team using it as they tried unsuccessfully to do it themselves.
Grifball is a different situation all together. While spawn killing is used it is not always seen in a good light. Grifball has the same issues as MLG does, control wise. When Grifball teams matchmake in DXP they have no competition. The players know the range of their weapons better, they know how to kill and use host, they know how to launch, hammer jump, wall hop, etc. Most of all though, they know how to use their skills to push back a team and keep them in a controlled situation. Most of the time this is through a kind of “advancing” wall of hammers with the ball carrier right behind them waiting for an opportunity to arise. The difference between Grifball teams playing, and matchmaking games are that Grifball teams are generally more careful in their advances. You don’t want to pressure the ball carrier too much or he will launch over your whole defense. You dont want to push the ball up too soon and let the other team surround him without help. Then add the people like me who spend a good amount of time in the air. Using hammer jumping I can prevent launches mid-air, jump over attacking hammers, and descend upon the ball carrier from above with the sword. When picking up the ball I can hammer jump simultaneously and launch myself high and quickly towards the other teams pad (where you plant the bomb) with little they can do to stop me. Teams are constantly adjusting to what they see, trying to prevent tactics like that and use some of their own. When the bomb is scored everyone is put again on a even playing field. Unlike in MLG, spawn killing is not a necessary tool for control and it can even hinder you. If you are at their pad and waiting for them to spawn, they may just leave you behind and attack your team 4 on 3 with little you can do about it. Sitting at someones spawn and killing them will definitely not make you popular with other players. Spawn killing in Grifball has a definitive time and place. If the other team has the ball on their side you may be at their spawn, but you should be pressuring the ball carrier. If the other team has the ball on your side, you shouldn’t be at the spawn at all. If your team has the ball on your side you can be at their spawn and even spawn kill while your team catches up, but it is better to step back a ways from their spawn points and pressure them without killing them before they can move. If your team has the ball near their pad, then spawn killing is encouraged. You should be killing as many people as possible to let your ball carrier through to score. Though not a very popular strategy in Grifball matches, spawn killing is definitely acceptable when you are about to score. For the same reason, you can betray your team-mates when the other team is about to score. People don’t really like it but they know it is necessary. In any case spawn killing for a long amount of time is definitely not acceptable and when your team is winning handily spawn killing makes you look like a douche. Above all you want both teams to have fun, and that cant happen when the other team are being destroyed before they even move.
Now on to regular Halo matchmaking. Killing someone if you see them spawn is fine, but going out of your way to watch their spawns to immediately kill them is something I hate. You don’t need to do it, you aren’t using it as a strategic maneuver, you aren’t accomplishing anything from it, you are just griefing the other team. In short, you are being a jerk for the sake of taking fun away from other people. Obviously in games there are points where you need to kill someone right after they spawn or else they are in a position to kill you or you won’t be able to capture the flag, but killing someone for no apparent reason as they spawn takes all the fun out of the game for them. They didn’t have a chance to even react and you didn’t need to go way out of your way to shoot them right as they spawned. This is extremely prevalent in games with snipers. A while back Nokyard (creator of the Grifball maps and an excellent forger) was making a set of ten maps to play this variant of sniper CTF on. I had already played a few games with him and he was going to show the game type to BurnieBurns and Jack (Administrator of the Grifball league and another Rooster Teeth employee). Both me an Nokyard could outsnipe them and we saw immediately that if we continually sniped them as they spawned (the maps were essentially long strips of land with flags on either side, about 3 spartans wide) they wouldn’t like the gametype and all the fun would be taken out of it. So many times I would with-hold shooting or even let them kill me once in a while so that it wasn’t a total slaughter. Me and Nokyard won handily and I went insanely positive but not once had I spawn killed them without letting them re-act (or if I did, I withheld the shot the second time the spawned). They came out raving about how fun the gametype was and Nokyards great forging skills.
Spawn killing has a discrete time when it is allowed: Always in MLG, strategically and not gratuitously in Grifball, and almost never in regular Matchmaking.
Spawn Killing is unavoidable but Spawn Camping is Unacceptable << Thats what I think.
Spawn killing in Halo 3 takes more “skill” than anything else in halo 3. You’re basically taking the same principal of calculating how to throw an amazing grenade and amplifying it a thousand fold within 5 seconds. Also, it takes rediculous map control. If someone hands you that much map control, why not go for it? It’s like hanging onto a power weapon. If you see a sniper sitting there on the ground, odds are that you’ll pick it up if you have an IQ of over 25. That obviously leads to more control that you wouldn’t just hand to the enemy.
Also, spawn trapping has nothing to do with memorization, otherwise you wouldn’t be able to do it the first time you play on a new map… I promised myself my comment wouldn’t long, so I’m done :)
Sleeky i love you =] <3 trep
o yeah no homo haha
I’m for and against, although to a lesser extent for.
Every now and then i’ll drop a killball on a friend, get a couple of laughs, but I take it off of them after one or two kills, I dont do it over and over again, I think thats when its okay, when its only done once or twice, but if its done over and over again (for example i once went away for about twenty minutes during a forge game, and when i came back i was being killball-spawned, when i looked at the postgame report i saw I had been killed 367 times) then it pisses me off.
As for matchmaking spawn killing… I wont let a person go if they happen to spawn in front of me while i’m walking by, due to the threat of dying if I do, i’m sure nearly no-one does let people go if they spawn in front of them randomly. But just sitting in the middle of the map with a sniper scanning the spawn points after you kill a guy just takes the fun out of everything, I’m against that kind of stuff, but if its just one random bad spawn then i’m okay with it.
Here Is What Happened to My Friend. They Had A Warthogs, Hornets And Ghosts All Around Their Base. I Forgot The Map Of Where He Was. He Told Me The Story And Said That he Had 2 Seconds Before He Died. He Had a 1.75 KD And After This Match He Had 1.50. He Was Going Crazy. He Was upset And All. But I Asked Him If He Thought Spawn Killing Is Cheap And He said Yes But Its Part Of The Game. Sometimes You Will Be The Person Being Spawn Killed And Sometimes You Will Be The Person Spawn Killing. Thats Just How The Cookie Crumbles.
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